WiLD Conversation

In this powerful episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with Tim Neville, President and CEO of Echoing Hills, to explore what happens when an organization moves away from quick-fix leadership development and embeds human-centered growth into its core operational strategy.
Starting as a camp counselor before rising to lead a statewide ministry serving over 700 individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities, Tim shares how Echoing Hills integrated the WiLD Way to build high-trust systems from the executive level all the way to frontline caregivers. Discover how measuring trust through data, aligning top-down strategy with whole-person growth, and establishing a multi-year development system transformed their organizational culture, doubled team engagement, and created a sustainable framework that outlives any single leader.
Listen in to learn how your executive team can go beyond offsite workshops, measure what lies beneath the surface, and embed the WiLD Way directly into your organization’s DNA.
Key Takeaways:
Succession as Trust Transfer: Why traditional succession efforts fail when they treat leadership transitions as simple role swaps rather than systemic handoffs of organizational trust.
Data-Driven Culture: How measuring trust dynamically with the WiLD Trust Index provided concrete KPIs to track leadership health and organizational retention.
Top-Down Cascading Impact: The power of starting whole-leader development with executive leadership before scaling it to over 100 regional and frontline leaders.
The WiLD Integration: How Echoing Hills customized WiLD to craft "The Echoing Way," weaving developmental tools directly into daily operations from Day 1 onboarding.

In this episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Adam Tarnow, former CPA, leadership development expert, and author of The Fog of Work: A Simple Approach to Navigating the Complexity of Middle Management , to explore why middle managers play one of the most influential roles in building trust and shaping organizational culture.
Together, they unpack the unique pressures of leading from the middle, where expectations flow down from senior leadership while the daily needs of teams rise from below. Rather than viewing middle management as a frustrating stop on the way to executive leadership, Adam and Rob reveal why this "fog" is actually the proving ground where trust is earned, character is formed, and healthy organizational culture takes root.
Drawing on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, they challenge leaders to move beyond blame and embrace personal agency. The conversation explores how thriving organizations aren't built on flawless leaders, but on systems of repair—cultures where honest conversations, accountability, and the willingness to learn from mistakes create lasting trust.
💡 Key Leadership Takeaways
Trust Is Built Through Repair, Not PerfectionThe healthiest organizations aren't those that avoid conflict, they're the ones that repair it well. Trust grows when leaders embrace honest feedback, acknowledge missteps, and address broken dynamics before they become cultural norms.
Middle Managers Shape Organizational Culture Every DayThe middle isn't just where work gets done. The middle is where culture is lived. Positioned between strategic vision and frontline execution, middle managers have a unique opportunity to translate values into everyday leadership that builds trust across the organization.
Lead Through Pressure with Agency, Not BlamePressure can tempt leaders to focus on circumstances they can't control. Lasting leadership begins when we reclaim our agency, respond with intention, and choose courage over complaint, even when the path forward feels uncertain.
Whether you're a middle manager, senior executive, or emerging leader, this conversation offers practical wisdom for navigating workplace complexity, building trust under pressure, and becoming the kind of leader who shapes a healthier organizational culture from wherever you lead.

In this episode Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with longtime friend, colleague, and strategic partner Dr. Daniel Hallak, an Industrial-Organizational Psychologist and author of the new book, The Trust Circle. Together, they go "off-road" to explore how the landscape of leadership development has shifted, the deep-seated challenges of founder-led businesses, and why true human connection is the ultimate business strategy.
Key Takeaways from the Conversation:
Developing As You Run the Business: For mid-size and small businesses without massive corporate training budgets, leadership development isn't a classroom exercise, it happens live on the job. The strategy of the business and the growth of the individual must be dynamically married.
The Power of Context and Listening: Expertise and tools only go so far. True value comes from understanding the context of where to apply that expertise, which requires leaders to prioritize deep, attentive listening over simply trying to look interesting.
Loneliness as a Leadership "Check Engine Light": When a leader steps out to go first, they often find themselves standing alone. While loneliness is an inevitable crucible of leadership progress, it serves as a critical diagnostic signal that it’s time to pull into the pit stop and reconnect.
The Blueprint of Connection: To combat debilitating isolation, leaders must intentionally build a "Trust Circle." Dr. Hallak breaks down the chemistry of connection into three distinct relational pillars:
Stretch: People who push us and offer candid feedback.
Support: People who provide emotional safety and mentoring.
Strategy: People who help position us and advocate for our opportunities.
"We need different people for different reasons in different seasons... Isolation does not drift into positive outcomes for people. It will break somebody. But when you get the connection you need, it acts as both an accelerant and a shield." — Dr. Daniel Hallak

In this episode of WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna Rob and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Matt Hangen, President and CEO of Water4, an organization radically reshaping how the world tackles the global water crisis.
Moving past traditional, short-lived charity models, Matt shares how Water4 operates as a nonprofit that wholly owns for-profit water businesses in Africa.
By using donations as catalytic startup capital and shifting the paradigm from "beneficiaries of charity" to "valued customers," Water4 empowers local entrepreneurs to build, scale, and maintain piped-water systems.
The conversation dives deep into the "chemistry of trust," the necessity of human agency, and what happens when leaders stop viewing mistakes as fatal and start viewing individuals through the lens of inherent dignity and potential.
Key Takeaways
1. The Failure of the "Communal Hand Pump" (The Charity Trap)
The Problem: Traditional international aid often relies on drilling a communal hand pump in a village, expecting a volunteer committee to maintain it. When it inevitably breaks due to social friction or lack of funds, another NGO simply rolls in to drill another—leaving villages full of "broken carcasses" of aid.
The Reality: 30% to 60% of traditional water projects are broken. True sustainability requires shifting away from Western-dependent aid toward market-based solutions.
2. Dignity Through Pricing & Ownership
Shifting the Model: Water4 charges a market rate ($1.25 per 1,000 liters) and requires a $100 deposit for home water meters.
The Psychological Shift: Charging money isn't cruel; it's the ultimate form of dignity. When people pay for a service, they transition from passive recipients of charity to active heroes of their own families. Communities that struggled to raise $300 for hand pump maintenance are now delivering bags containing $10,000 in cash to get reliable, piped systems installed.
3. Unlocking Human Agency via "Time"
The Real Need: The primary crisis of water isn't just health—it's time. Women and girls spend up to 70,000 hours of their lives simply hauling water.
The Economic Ripple Effect: When piped water arrives at a doorstep, it unlocks hours of free time. This single shift sparks local cottage industries: grandmothers boiling water to sell rice, young men opening motorcycle-washing bays, and the creation of hair salons and construction businesses.
4. The Customer Promise: The 3 Pillars of Trust
To build unbreakable trust with their market, Matt and his team rely on a simple, non-negotiable equation:
Always Safe: Testing water quality weekly (far exceeding national standards) so no one ever gets sick.
Always On: A strict 24-hour repair promise, requiring teams to work late into the night if systems fail.
Easy to Buy: Providing three distinct ways to pay (text, agents, or digital centers), allowing users to trust the utility so deeply they even use it as an inflation hedge.
5. Leadership: When Vices Masquerade as Virtues
On a personal level, Matt opened up about the internal work required to lead a high-stakes organization:
Grandiosity vs. Resilience: Leaders often view strategic mistakes as fatal because of a hidden pride. Learning to say, "Of course it didn't work out flawlessly, nobody is more surprised than me that it's working," defuses toxic pressure.
The False Masks: Leaders must constantly audit their motives because over-control easily masquerades as prudence, and fear easily masquerades as responsibility.
 
For more info about Water4: https://www.water4.org/
For more about WiLD Leaders: https://www.wildleaders.org/
 
 

What happens when a corporate culture prioritizes operational checklists over human character? In this dynamic episode of the WiLD Conversation Podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Benj Miller, serial entrepreneur, leadership architect, and co-founder of System and Soul. Together, they unpack a foundational leadership paradox: the constant tension between human being and human doing.
Moving past traditional, box-checking corporate frameworks, this conversation reveals why organizational performance and human empathy are not opposites, but oxygen for one another. Benj opens up about his own humbling entrepreneurial failures, the distinct evolutionary leap required to move from a "renegade founder" to a "renegade leader," and how to implement an intentional strategy for your organizational culture. Tune in to discover how to scale your business operations without losing your humanity.
Key Takeaways
The Integration Paradox: Organizations must focus heavily on both the visible (operational systems, metrics, results) and the invisible (thinking, wellness, and human fulfillment). True organizational health only happens when the system and soul are deeply integrated.
Transitioning from Founder to Leader: A "renegade founder" relies on raw energy to get an idea off the ground, but often ends up trapped in an exhausting prison of their own making. Scaled growth requires maturing into a "renegade leader" who can embrace boundaries, listen to trusted advisors, and implement a roadmap.
The True Markers of Leadership Effectiveness: A leader's real-world effectiveness comes down to just two attributes: being inwardly sound (self-aware, principled, and holistically healthy) and others-focused.
Vulnerability Proves Safety: High-performance cultures require safety and vulnerability, but they don't happen in a linear, comfortable order. Leaders must step out and be vulnerable first to actively prove that psychological safety exists.
Clarity is Kindness: Workplace culture cannot simply be delegated away to a VP of Culture. True alignment and trust are built when leaders provide functional, clear job descriptions and explicit accountability metrics rather than superficial office perks.

What if the challenges we label as engagement problems, culture problems, leadership problems, or performance problems are actually trust problems at their core?
In this episode of The WiLD Conversation Podcat, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with trust expert and researcher David Horsager to explore why trust remains the foundational driver behind organizational health, leadership influence, team performance, and human connection.
David shares the story of how a late-night realization transformed his career and led to the development of the Eight Pillars of Trust, a framework now used by leaders and organizations around the world. Together, they discuss the relationship between trust and leadership development, why trust can be measured, the practical behaviors that build credibility, and what it means to cultivate trust in an age shaped by AI, uncertainty, and increasing skepticism.
The conversation moves beyond theory into the deeply personal, touching on family, humility, continual learning, vulnerability, and the responsibility leaders carry to become more trustworthy themselves.
This episode is a powerful reminder that trust is the leading indicator behind every outcome that matters.
Key Takeaways
Why most organizational challenges are trust challenges in disguise.
The origin and application of David Horsager's Eight Pillars of Trust.
How trust can be measured, developed, and strengthened intentionally.
The connection between leadership development, culture, and trust.
Why personal trust is becoming increasingly important in the age of AI.
The role of humility and continual learning in trustworthy leadership.
Practical ways leaders can build trust within teams and organizations.

What does it take to lead in environments where trust, security, and uncertainty collide?
In this episode of WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with global security strategist and author Christopher Stitt for a thought-provoking conversation on leadership inside complex systems, the paradox of vulnerability, and why trust is never static.
Drawing from his experience in global security and insights from his book Scaling Pyramids, Chris unpacks the realities of leading within bureaucracy and challenges the assumption that organizational systems automatically create trust.
Together, Rob and Chris explore how the hidden “meta” of an organization—the unspoken rules, assumptions, and narratives shaping culture—often determines whether teams operate from fear, transparency, or authentic collaboration. Using everything from Dungeons & Dragons analogies to real-world security leadership examples, this conversation dives deep into the tension between protection and growth, control and vulnerability, structure and humanity.
Key topics include:
Why leadership begins with willingness, not title
The hidden “meta” shaping organizational culture
The dangers of overprotecting teams and organizations
The “sheep dog” mentality in security and leadership
What it means to truly “own the bureaucracy”
Whether you lead a business, a team, a nonprofit, or a family, this episode offers a compelling framework for understanding how trust is built, broken, and restored in today’s rapidly changing world.
Listen now and join the conversation on leadership, security, and the human side of performance.

In an industry where "box-checking" can often replace "soul-shaping," trust remains the invisible engine of successful healthcare organizations. This episode explores why trust isn't a light switch you can simply flip on, but a living process of maintenance, recovery, and truth-telling. We dive into the hidden costs of low-trust environments, where employees spend more time appearing trustworthy than actually being it, and how leaders can shift from managing assumptions to building authentic alignment.
 
Key Leader Takeaways:
Trust is a Process, Not a Switch: It isn't binary (on/off). It requires daily "maintenance and recovery" rather than a one-time achievement.
The Cost of "Invisible Assumptions": In low-trust environments, staff waste cognitive energy managing perceptions instead of performing.
The "Quiet Exit" of Trust: Customers and patients rarely protest when trust is lost; they simply stop showing up.
Vulnerability over Perfection: Trust is built by being honest about where work still needs to be done, not by projecting a flawless image.
Soul-Shaping vs. Box-Checking: Real organizational health comes from fostering courage and job clarity, not just completing compliance checklists.

In this soulful episode, Rob sits down with long-time peer and "architect of hope," Dr. Matt Russell, Executive Director of Iconoclast Artists & projectCURATE.  Together, they deconstruct the traditional myths of leadership, moving past "performative vulnerability" toward something much more rugged: Wild Trust.
Sharing a powerful excerpt from his book, Whole Leaders Wild Trust, Rob sets the stage for a discussion on why trust isn't a byproduct of perfection, but rather a result of courageous systems and the "presence of repair" in the face of human brokenness.
Key Takeaways:
The Architect’s Role: Leadership isn't just about dreaming; it's about building the "scaffolding" that allows others to find hope.
Beyond Performance: Distinguishing between "performative vulnerability" and "sacrificial courage" that actually costs a leader something.
The Trust Paradox: Why vulnerability isn't the foundation of trust, but an inherently unsafe act that requires a foundation of courageous systems to survive.
The Power of Repair: Understanding that trust is forged not when things go right, but when we navigate what went wrong with self-awareness and love.

Why are more than 8,000 college students gathering every week at Reed Auditorium at Texas A&M?
In a cultural moment marked by perpetual stimulation without satisfaction, they aren’t showing up for more noise, they're showing up for something real. For leaders who are awake.
In this episode of The WiLD Conversation Podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Brian McCormack to explore the growing hunger for truth, trust, and transcendence among the next generation.
Together, they unpack the high-stakes reality of leading in a time where truth moves at lightspeed and authenticity is often questioned. They discuss why college campuses are becoming epicenters of both cultural disruption and spiritual awakening, and what it means to lead in the midst of it.
This conversation invites leaders to move beyond performance and into presence, embracing brokenness, owning limitations, and stepping into what Brian calls ferocious intentionality: a disciplined, awake, and deeply purposeful way of stewarding time.
The fight for this generation may not be about attention,it may be about the minutes.
Key Takeaways
The Campus as the Epicenter: Why movements, both cultural and spiritual, are igniting among students, and what leaders must recognize
The AI Truth Crisis:  Leading in a world where reality feels increasingly unstable
Perpetual Stimulation vs. Satisfaction:  Understanding the deeper hunger driving students toward meaning and the supernatural
Leading from Brokenness:  Why trust begins with the courage to say, “I may fail you”
Fighting for the Minutes:  Practicing ferocious intentionality in a world designed to keep us distracted and asleep