WiLD Conversation

Dr. Amy Edmondson on Leading Without Fear: The Truth About Trust, Failure, and Psychological Safety

In this unmissable episode of The WiLD Conversation podcast, hosts Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu are joined by the legendary Dr. Amy Edmondson, Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School and the pioneering mind behind the globally transformative concept of psychological safety.
With candor and clarity, Dr. Edmondson challenges long-held beliefs about leadership, trust, and failure. She reframes trust not as something earned over time, but as a deliberate choice—a bold act that inspires others to rise to the occasion. And she cuts through misconceptions about psychological safety, revealing it not as comfort or kindness, but as the courage to foster learning, candor, and intelligent risk-taking.
This conversation is a masterclass for leaders who want to build environments where people are safe to speak up, take smart risks, and grow together.
Leadership Takeaways
→ Trust Is a Choice, Not a Prize: Amy offers a compelling reframe: trust isn’t a passive result of consistency, it's an active decision to believe in people before they’ve proven themselves. That kind of leadership invites others to show up more fully.
→ Psychological Safety ≠ Comfort: Psychological safety isn’t about being “nice” or avoiding discomfort, it's about creating the conditions for learning, candor, and accountability, even when the stakes are high.
→ Vulnerability Is Strength: Leaders who admit mistakes and ask questions set the tone for growth. Vulnerability isn’t weakness; it’s a strategic signal of trustworthiness and courage.
→ Discernment Over Permission: Failure isn’t always bad. Amy unpacks the difference between basic, complex, and intelligent failures, encouraging leaders to cultivate a culture that learns from risk without lowering standards.

Cultivating Courage, Trust, and the "Human Algorithm" of High Performance with Jamie Crosbie

What really drives high performance? In this episode, global speaker and leadership strategist Jamie Crosbie joins Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu on the WiLD Conversation Podcast to challenge the metrics-only mindset and champion the human algorithm—where trust, courage, and clarity fuel sustainable success.
Jamie reminds us: “If outcomes are king, then trust is the crown.” Together, they unpack how courageous leadership, emotional intelligence, and reframing failure can transform feedback into fuel—and cultivate cultures where people thrive, not just perform.
If you’re leading in high-pressure spaces, this one’s for you.
Leadership Takeaways:
🔹 Lead with Metrics and Meaning Performance soars when goals are clear and people feel valued. Don’t skip the "why."
🔹 Courage Builds Trust Vulnerability isn’t weakness—it’s leadership. Own your limits, invite honesty, and watch trust grow.
🔹 Failure Fuels Growth Ditch the fear. Normalize failure as feedback. Try asking: “What did you fail at today?”
🔹 Self-Awareness > Strategy Alone Even the best plan falls flat without emotional intelligence. Start within to lead well.
🔹 Find Your People Leadership isn’t a solo act. Build your circle—mentors, coaches, truth-tellers. No one peaks alone.

How Vulnerability Rescues the Next Generation with Jose Rodrgiuez

In this powerful episode of The WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Jose Rodriguez, CEO of Rescue a Generation, to explore what it truly takes to build and rebuild trust—in ourselves, our teams, and the next generation of leaders.
From his courageous journey out of gang life to launching a thriving nonprofit that empowers urban youth across Southern California, Jose offers a raw and hopeful perspective on how trust isn’t earned it’s a daily, intentional choice.
Together, they unpack why vulnerability is the secret ingredient in leadership, how asking better questions, especially with Gen Z, can transform disengagement into deep ownership, and why the only way up is through trust. Whether you’re leading a team, mentoring young people, or working to rebuild broken relationships, this conversation will leave you inspired to lead with radical ownership, consistent action, and the kind of trust that changes lives.
 
💡 Key Leadership Takeaways:
 
1. Trust Is a Practiced Choice, Not a Trait Trustworthy leadership isn’t something you have—it’s something you do, daily. Jose’s story reveals that choosing trust, especially when it’s risky, is what transforms both leaders and teams.
“Trust is not a trait. It's a practiced and powerful choice.”
2. Beliefs Drive Behaviors: Change doesn't start with commands—it starts with beliefs. Great leaders get curious about what’s underneath the surface.
“If you want to change the behavior, you’ve got to find out what the belief is.”
3. Ask Better Questions: Young leaders don’t need more answers—they need to be seen and heard. Meaningful questions open doors to engagement, trust, and breakthrough.
“We live in an answer culture. But asking the right question can change everything.”
4. Repairing Trust Requires Ownership and Small Steps: Trust breaks in moments, but it’s rebuilt in tiny, consistent acts of ownership, honesty, and repair.
“Every broken commitment is actually a cry for help.”
 
🔗 Learn more about Rescue a Generation: https://www.rescueageneration.com/
 
🔗 Learn more about WiLD: https://www.wildleaders.org/
 
🔗 Download the State of Trust At Work report : https://info.wildleaders.org/state-of-trust-report-registration-0
 

The Trust Equation: Measuring, Building, and Leading with Intention a WiLD Trust Index conversation with Chris Shaffer

In this illuminating WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna and Sabeth Kapahu sit down with Chris Shaffer, WiLD Leaders Strategic Development Architect and former Microsoft director. Chris Shaffer unpacks the profound shift in how we understand and cultivate trust in today's complex world.
Moving beyond mere information, they delve into how real trust is "worked out" through vulnerability, conflict, and genuine relationship. Discover why measuring trust isn't just about assessment, but about igniting critical conversations and empowering leaders to address hidden challenges at scale. This episode is a must-listen for any leader ready to move from the "unconscious incompetent" to the "unconscious competent" in building a culture where trust isn't just a buzzword, but a tangible, measurable foundation for success.
Five Key Leadership Takeaways:
Trust is Not Just Information; It's Interaction: Dr. McKenna emphasizes that in today's personalized information landscape, true trust goes beyond what we're told or read. It's "worked out" through conversation, tested in conflict, and proven in vulnerability. Leaders must foster environments where this interactive trust can flourish, rather than relying on one-way information dissemination.
Measure to Manage: You Can't Improve What You Don't See: Chris Shaffer powerfully argues that measuring trust moves it from the "dark" of unconscious incompetence into the "light" of conscious awareness. Without concrete data, leaders are left to guess at their organization's trust levels, making intentional improvement nearly impossible. Measuring trust provides the clarity and actionability needed to identify specific areas of strength and opportunity.
Trust Assessment Fuels Growth, Not Judgment: Counterintuitively, the most common emotional response Chris observes from leaders after seeing their trust results (even low ones) is gratitude. This isn't about passing or failing a test; it's about receiving a clear, honest picture of reality. Leaders with a growth mindset embrace these insights as a starting point for improvement, demonstrating courage and a willingness to be "editable."
Leaders Have Blind Spots – Data Illuminates Them: Whether a leader suspects a trust issue or is unsure, the Wild Trust Index illuminates strategic blind spots by providing precise details. It offers a clear framework for understanding trust at personal, team, and organizational levels, guiding leaders to focus on specific drivers rather than broad, undefined problems. This precision empowers targeted action.
Trust is the Root Cause of Culture: Complementary, Not Competitive: While culture surveys measure symptoms, the Wild Trust Index gets to the foundational root cause. Trust is the bedrock upon which healthy organizational culture is built. Measuring trust provides a deeper understanding of underlying dynamics, complementing broader culture assessments and offering actionable levers to improve overall organizational health.

Garry Ridge on The "Dumb-Ass" Way to Build Trust: Leadership Lessons from WD-40's Former CEO

In this episode of The WiLD Conversation podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with Garry Ridge, former CEO and Chairman of WD-40—a leader who transformed a household product into a global brand and one of the most admired workplace cultures in business.
Drawing from his 35-year journey at WD-40, including 25 years as CEO, Garry challenges conventional leadership norms and emphasizes the non-negotiable role of humanity in business.
Key Leadership Takeaways:
Culture is Strategy, Not a “Nice-to-Have”Garry makes it clear: a trust-based culture isn’t secondary to results. The will of the people × the strategy = results.
The Power of a “Dumb-Ass” MindsetYes, you read that right. His book Any Dumbass Can Do It underscores the idea that building strong culture isn’t rocket science, it’s about humility, courage, and consistency. This mindset invites leaders to say “I don’t know” and focus on bringing out the best in others.
Intentional Self-Awareness Is EssentialGarry asks himself often, “Am I being the person I want to be right now?” For leaders, self-awareness isn’t optional. The daily work that prevents us from offering people our “leftovers.”
Tough-Minded and Tender-Hearted LeadershipLeadership isn’t a choice between strength and empathy, it’s a both/and. Garry calls for leaders who make hard decisions and hold people accountable while also caring deeply for their people and creating psychological safety.
Measure the Data but Feel the RealityWhile data is key, Garry urges leaders to “get their shoes dirty" to walk alongside their teams and ensure the numbers reflect lived experience.
Belonging is a Shared ResponsibilityWD-40 thrived because it clearly defined its values and invited people to choose them. Culture wasn’t enforced—it was embraced by those aligned with its purpose.
Fear is the Enemy of Trust and LearningBy redefining failure as a “learning moment,” Garry removed fear from the equation. The result? A workplace where trust, experimentation, and growth could flourish.
Purpose Beyond Profit Is FuelWhat sustained Garry’s decades-long leadership? A clear, people-centered purpose: making a positive difference in the lives of others, inside and outside the company.
 

Getting It Done and Doing It Right: Leading with No-Blame Bias with CEO Alex Shootman

What if the key to trust wasn’t just character—but competence, clarity, and accountability?
In this compelling episode of The WiLD Conversation Podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with longtime friend and fellow leadership practitioner Alex Shootman, CEO of Alkami Technology and author of Done Right: How Tomorrow’s Top Leaders Get Stuff Done. What unfolds is not just a sharp exchange between two seasoned leaders—but a deeply honest conversation between old friends who have walked through leadership’s messiness, pressure, and purpose together.
With decades of experience leading turnarounds and scaling high-performing software organizations, Alex shares how he grounds his leadership in four non-delegable CEO responsibilities—and how a “No-Blame Bias” has shaped the way he builds trust, manages growth, and drives both results and culture.
Drawing from a leadership framework that values both getting it done and doing it right, Alex unpacks how clear accountability, relentless transparency, and trust as a managed business function are essential to long-term success. He reminds us that in every high-performing team, trust is breaking all the time—so we must be intentional about building it all the time.
Whether you're a CEO, an emerging leader, or someone navigating the tension between results and values, this episode offers not only practical wisdom—but a refreshing window into what happens when sharp minds, shared values, and leaders-in-process come together in authentic conversation.
 
💡 Leadership Takeaways
The CEO’s Responsibility: Strategy, values, economic outcomes, and building the right team cannot be outsourced—they must be owned and lived by the leader.
No-Blame Bias: Creating a culture of truth-telling starts with removing fear of blame. Leaders must model and reinforce this bias to build trust across the organization.
Trust as a Business Function: Trust doesn’t self-sustain. Even in high-performing organizations, it must be constantly assessed, cultivated, and rebuilt.
The Getting It Done / Doing It Right Matrix: High-impact organizations don’t reward results at the expense of values. The real culture carriers do both—and they’re celebrated by name.
Growth Breaks Things: Just like Hemingway’s “stronger at the broken places,” growth breaks teams and systems—what matters is how leaders repair and rebuild with intention.

The Courage to Fire: Why Trust in Leadership Starts with the CEO a conversation with Sam Willing

In this bold and timely episode of A WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna is joined by executive coach and HR leader Sam Willing to talk about one of the most courageous (and controversial) leadership moves: firing the wrong executive—even when they deliver results.
Drawing from nearly three decades in HR and her own journey through grief and self-discovery, Sam shares how emotional regulation, executive accountability, and trust-building are inseparable in healthy organizational cultures. Together, Rob and Sam unpack what it really means to lead with composure under pressure, how to measure trust in your teams, and why the cost of protecting a toxic leader is too high to ignore.
This episode will challenge, inspire, and call leaders—especially CEOs—to take a hard look at whether their values are actually lived out… or just talked about.
🧭 Leadership Takeaways:
Trust is measurable—and it starts with you. Every leader development activity is also a trust-building initiative.
Composure under pressure is not a personality trait, it’s a skill leaders must develop for the sake of their people. Toxic executives damage cultures quietly and deeply. Protecting them out of fear is leadership avoidance, not strategy.
Teams will stay loyal to each other, not the org. When trust is lacking at the top, subcultures form—and leaders miss the truth. CEOs carry the weight of trust.
Courageous decisions like holding executives accountable are where real values show up.
Resources Mentioned:
WiLD Trust Platform
Dr. Rob McKenna’s Composed: The Heart and Science of Leading Under Pressure
The WiLD Trust Index
https://www.wildleaders.org/wild-trust-index
The State of Trust at Work Report
https://info.wildleaders.org/state-of-trust-report-registration-0

Stephen M.R. Covey on The Currency of Trust: Why Influence Begins with Being Influenced

In this powerful episode of The WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with Stephen M. R. Covey, best-selling author of The Speed of Trust, to explore the transformative power of trust in leadership, relationships, and organizational life. In a world marked by declining institutional confidence, Covey argues that trust isn’t just a value—it’s a measurable, learnable competency that multiplies performance and accelerates impact.
Listeners are invited into a conversation that challenges the myth that trust is soft or intangible. Covey reframes trust as a strategic imperative and leadership skill that determines how quickly we can innovate, collaborate, and lead through change. In his words, “Low trust is a tax. High trust is a dividend.”
The conversation also touches on a key paradox of influence: To lead effectively, we must first be willing to be influenced—to genuinely understand others before we expect them to follow us. As leaders model humility and create space for others to feel deeply seen and heard, they become catalysts for real trust.
🔑 Key Takeaways for Leaders:
Trust is a performance multiplier. It impacts everything—from speed and cost to employee engagement, innovation, and well-being.
Trust is learnable. It’s not a fixed trait but a developable competency that can be cultivated with intention and integrity.
To influence, be influenced. Understanding someone deeply—until they feel understood—is the doorway to earning trust and leading with impact.
Trust creates joy and energy. Neuroscience now backs what many leaders intuitively know: high-trust cultures are not only more productive, they’re more human.
 
In a world of declining trust, being trusted is a differentiator. Leaders and organizations who make trust a goal—not just a tool—gain a significant edge.

Between Courtrooms and Campuses: A President Emeritus on Trust, Tenure, and the Space Between Idealism and Reality with Alec Hill

In this deeply personal and profoundly insightful episode of The WiLD Conversation podcast, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with Alec Hill—President Emeritus of InterVarsity, legal scholar, mentor, and cancer survivor—to explore the paradoxes of leadership across decades of both adversity and grace. From the dark corners of a broken legal system to the life-giving mission of global relief and development, Alec shares how life, leadership, and trust have evolved through personal failure, painful seasons, and ultimately, profound purpose.
This conversation is as raw as it is hopeful. Alec reflects on the power of convictional leadership in a polarized world, the loneliness of executive roles, and the anchoring influence of trusted relationships. He opens up about how surviving bone marrow cancer reframed everything—from how he listens, to how he mentors, to what really matters in leadership.
Leadership Takeaways:
The Jungle of Trust: Why your 30s and 40s might be the most disorienting time in your leadership—and what to do about it.
From Idealism to Wisdom: Navigating the shift from “I can fix everything” to “I can’t fix everyone”—and the cost of waiting too long.
The Decisive Edge: Why unresolved personnel decisions undermine trust, and how decisive action (with compassion) strengthens culture.
Resetting the Clock: How facing mortality sharpens your intuition, deepens your empathy, and clarifies what legacy you’re building.
Leading with Conviction in a Divided World: Why leaders must hold to their core values without abandoning curiosity or compassion across divides.
If you’re leading in a high-pressure environment, struggling with middle-season restlessness, or walking through the unknown—this conversation will resonate deeply.
Download the State of Trust at Work Report
Connect with WiLD Leaders: 

This Changes Lives: How Life-Giving Workplaces Create Life-Changing Ripples with Phil Goodman

In this powerful episode of The WiLD Conversation, Dr. Rob McKenna sits down with Phil Goodman, founder of Talent Realized, to explore how truly life-giving workplaces don’t just transform organizations—they change lives far beyond the office. Phil shares his journey from doubting founder to trusted advisor, and what it means to build cultures where trust, clarity, and meaningful connection take root. Together, they unpack what happens when leaders slow down, lean into conflict with composure, and prioritize relational strategy as much as business outcomes. Whether you're a founder, executive, or HR leader, this conversation offers a compelling call to reimagine the workplace as a launchpad for community transformation.
Leadership Takeaways:
Trust Is the Starting Point: Before you can build trust in your organization, you have to grapple with your own self-trust as a leader. Support systems matter—mentors, coaches, and advisors play a critical role in helping you move forward with courage.
Treat People Strategy Like Business Strategy: Phil models a fractional Chief People Officer approach—aligning people systems directly with business goals. Leadership is not just about outcomes; it's about the people who get you there.
Measure What You Say You Value: If people and culture are truly priorities, they must be monitored like any other key performance indicator. Tools like a trust index can give insight into readiness for change, retention health, and strategic timing.
Build Teams That Know Each Other: High performance requires high connection. People don’t just want to be seen for their productivity—they want to be known and valued as whole people.
Don’t Avoid the Hard Conversations: Avoiding conflict stunts growth and trust. Leaders must be equipped to have truth-filled, grace-driven conversations that deepen connection and resolve tension.
Life-Giving Cultures Ripple Outward: Healthy workplaces don’t just benefit business—they shape families, communities, and the way people show up in every area of life. Leadership is discipleship, and the workplace is a mission field.